27 comments on “"This Generation Will Not Pass Away…" – Comment

  1. Carol,

    When I've read this verse I've always understood it to be saying that once the signs begin to occur, those listed in Matthew 24, then that generation will not pass away without seeing it all fulfilled.

    We worship with some Preterist believers and honestly, I cannot even grasp the reasoning they use to make it all work out. Essentially, they think most everything happened at the fall of the Temple in AD 70. Very similar to Doug Wilson's description during the Piper end times discussion recently.

    I have not seriously studied the issue because it is in my “nice to know” category but it doesn't essentially affect my daily actions. Tithing, debt, and living as a Biblical woman and mother are more my studies right now because they affect my daily actions.

    However, I cannot find any way to agree with the Preterist view, so I'm sticking to the end times view when all these things shall take place. Especially since the earth was still here according to my thoughts and it sure isn’t new and improved! :0

    Berean Wife

    • The Passage in Matthew 24:1-34 does not predict the end of the world, instead it predicts the end of the age (“Aeon”) – the end of the Mosaic Age.

      Statement about cataclysmic cosmic events like the sun and the moon not giving off their lights and the stars literally falling from heaven is a well known OT expression representing the complete overthrow of the ruling elite in Israel as punishment and the destruction or desolation of the nation.

      I give you the link to get the biblical context of this expression in the Old Testament (OT).

      http://www.the-highway.com/matt24_Woodrow4.html

      Logically it must be so since if the universe (or world) would come to an end before Christ comes back to earth he would have no earth to come back to. Also the Jews do not have a conception of the ending of the world but the ending of the Mosaic age to usher in the Messianic Age.

      So before anyone study the Olivet Discourse one must get hold of a Greek Lexicon to check the translation of the words (i.e. Aeon (Age) is mistranslated to world & Oikemene (Roman Empire) is mistranslated to world also).

      Christ’s statement of “coming in the clouds of heaven” (Matthew 24:30) refers to the prophesy in Daniel 7:13-14 about the Son of Man coming with the clouds to get divine authority from the Ancient of Days (God the Father). It is an expression that Christ would come to sit on the Divine Throne to judge his people. This is a propheitc expression of “coming in judgment”. However, the Futurists interpreted this as seeing Christ literally “coming down” from heaven. That this is not so is proven by the fact that in Matthew 24:36,39,44,50 and Acts 1:6-7 no one can know the times and the season of his bodily coming back to earth. Whereas his “coming in the clouds of heaven” in Matthew 24:30 is preceeded by events for his followers to know the season (Matthew 24:32-33). Christ’s “coming WITH or IN the clouds of heaven” is not the same as the” literal and bodily coming DOWN from heaven to earth.” Christ’s followers will know the season of his “coming with or in the clouds of heaven” whereas they will not know the times and the season of his literal and bodily coming down from heaven to earth. The first the followers are given SPECIFIC SIGNS whereas in the second the followers are given GENERAL SIGNS. So, they are two separate events. One happened in 70 AD while the other would still happen in our future.

      This is PARTIAL PRETERISM OR PARTIAL FUTURISM.

  2. Thanks for posting that I didnt understand that either. I still dont understand it when he says I tell you the truth, some people standing here will see the Son of Man coming with his kingdom before they die." It seems like he is saying that he will return before they die but that dosnt make sence. Let me know if you understand it :)

    • Janell, “coming with the clouds” and “coming with his kingdom” is an expression representing his coming in judgment of the Jews and the giving of the promise kingdom of God (salvation from God) to the Gentiles ushering in the Messianic Age. So, it would happen when some of his first century followers are still living (those who survived the First Jewish-Roman War that culminated in the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD).

  3. Hello Janell,

    Great question!!!!! Yes, that's Matt 16:28. I think I know the answer but I'm going to study a little bit more and I'll probably put up a regular post instead of answering here.

    I'm glad you brought this up because it's a hard verse to grasp – I love that!!!!

    Blessings,
    carol

  4. Berean Wife,

    I recently read a huge Q&A commentary from a preterist site and I was amazed at what I found. First, they say that all of these events happened and that they could show us Scripturally where. Ok fine. Well they gave plenty of Scripture but everything was spiritualized or was an allegory. This makes me wonder if they have any type of hermeneutic at all.

    Usually when something is allegorized, it is also explained afterwards like with a parable, otherwise it is to be taken literally. But if you go by their method of interpretation, the problem is that it cannot be verified accurately like with a physical event. Also, others may have different interpretations if it's spiritualized and then you have a private interpretation and we know what the bible says about that. If you follow this through, you could have many interpretations (and fulfillments) from one prophecy and that spells E-R-R-O-R!

    What got me thinking about this whole thing was Hank Hannagraaf. I always thought that man was too smart for his own good. How can a man with his intellectual capabilities make such blunders with countless verses; essentially rewriting the entire bible? The bible is unrecognizable by the time the preterists are through with it.

    Blessings,
    Carol

    • Carol,

      There are two kinds of preterist position:

      FULL PRETERISM – all prophesies in scriptures already happened.
      PARTIAL PRETERISM – focuses primarily on the Olivet Discourse. It says that the events predicted by verses 1-33 were all fulfilled in 70 AD, whereas the verses after verse 35 would be fulfilled in our future. In other words, Jesus was revealed as the greatest prophet of all for making good his prediction that “this generation shall not pass away until all these things be fulfilled.” The things he was referring to are the events in verses 1-33. The things that remain UNFULFILLED are: Revelation of the “Man of Sin” (2 Thess 2:4), the physical and bodily coming back to earth of Christ and the General Judgment and the Resurrection of the dead.

      I believe the key to understanding the Olivet Discourse is to get the correct translations first by reference to the Greek Lexicon. There are many translations as there are so many bibles. You might be surprised that there are mistranslated words in Matthew 24 like “aeon” to “world” instead of “age” so that we read “end of the world” instead of “end of the age.” “Eikomene” (Roman empire) is also mistranslated to “world” so that we read “preached throughout the world” instead of “preached throughout the Roman Empire.”

      There are also prophetic expressions like “29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: ” If these would literally happen before Christ comes then he would not have an earth to return to. If the sun would not give off its light we would freeze to death. If the stars would fall from heaven and hit the earth the whole universe would be destroyed in a “big crunch.”

      The Olivet Discourse predicted two future events: One that happened in 70AD and the end times that will happen in our future. In the first event Christ told his disciples that they can know the times and the season even giving them the precise conditions when they should flee to the mountains to escape the desolation of the city while in the second no one knows just like the people in Noah’s time. In the first event great tribulation precedes it while the second is preceded by a life of plenty and peace as people are maarying and given to marriage. Certainly Christ is talking about two entirely separate events.

      There are also prediction of Christ’s coming (parousia) before the death of some of his disciples who would actually witnessed his “coming on the clouds of heave”. We know that it was a “spritual coming” to judge the Jews using the Roman Armies (the people of the prince in Daniel 9:26 and the abomination of desolation according to Luke which will surround Jerusalem). The words “this generation” (houtos genea or taute genea) always refer to the generation that the speaker is talking to or his contemporaries. Of course you can look at its every use in the whole NT to verify my claim. If Christ refers instead to the “generation that will witness the end times” he Evangelist should have used “ekeinos genea” or “that generation.”

      I believe that PARTIAL PRETERISM (or PARTIAL FUTURISM, if anyone wish to call it that way) is the correct interpretation of the Olivet Discourse. We can take the words of Christ and believe him when he says, “this generation shall not pass away until all these things be fulfilled” and at the same time understand that “this generation” (taute or houtos genea) can only mean the generation Christ is talking to or his contemporaries. An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence for his hearers to verify in their own lifetime. Jesus’ predictions were actually fulfilled, thus strengthening the faith of so many. We need to know the fulfilled biblical prophecies in order to have strong faith in future biblical prophecies.

      God bless,

      Claro

      • Claro,
        I might be warming up to the partial preterist position due to many reasons. (too many to name here – I have a e-folder with lots of notes) I’m still confused on a lot of issues though. I see the Olivet Discourse as definitely talking about THAT particular generation and there are many other verses that describe the unique wickedness about that particular generation. The result being the destruction of the temple in 70AD – the crowning jewel of the Pharisees of the synagogue of Satan. But I’m also noticing verses in Revelation that seem to describe that same event only not literally. If you have a website explaining this, please let me know. And Bookends, I will go to the website you listed in your comment.

      • Hi Carol,

        If you could buy the book of Gary DeMar with the title, “Last Days Madness – Obsession of the Modern Church” you would then have a good understanding of the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24) from a Partial Preterist perspective.

        Also highly recommended is the book of Kenneth L. Gantry Jr. with the title, “Before Jerusalem Fell – Dating the Book of Revelation.” He shows conclusively that the Book of Revelation was written by the Apostle John before 70 AD and it describes details of Christ’s Olivet Discourse using heavy metaphors.

        There is very close connection between Daniel’s Seventy Week Prophecy, Christ’s Olivet Discourse and John’s Book of Revelation of Jesus Christ. You have to understand that they PROPHESIED to the same cataclysmic event of the great Jewish-Roman War of 66-70 AD culminating in the total destruction of the Jewish temple, demise of the Jewish nation and the end of the OT Jewish Religion. The present day Judaism is different from the OT Judaism.

        “Futurism” is the logical consequence of Dispensationalism which teaches that there are two Israel of God – Carnal and Spiritual. Paul teaches God has only one true Israel of God – the Spiritual Israel, a nation which has the same faith as that of Abraham.

        One of the teachings of “Futurism” is the prophecy concerning the building of a 3rd temple which can never be found in the whole bible. When I asked a Futurist friend if he could cite a verse concerning the prophecy of a 3rd temple he admitted there is none but that it is an inference arising from their interpretation of Matthew 24. For the Futurist Matthew 24 is about the destruction of the 3rd temple which is absolutely wrong. If that is the case then we have a situation where the bible did not have a prophecy concerning the most monumental event in the life of the Jewish nation that alters their history forever – the destruction of the 2nd temple (Herodian temple).

        Another major teaching of Dispensationalism is that God has not yet fulfilled his promise to make his Son sits on the “throne of David” which they think is an earthly throne. This is a gross mistake since Christ solemnly declares to Pilate that the reason why he came to earth and be born as a man is to witness to the truth that he is a King but nevertheless “his Kingdom is not of this world” and therefore not earthly but a heavenly kingdom where he rules both the spiritual and physical worlds. When he ascended into heaven God fulfilled his promise to make him sit on the “throne of David” (which simply means a place of authority) when God said that he will sit “on his right side” and make his enemies his footstool.

      • Thank you, Claro, for recommending the two books. A part of me wants to get my hands on anything I can to better understand this and many more related subjects. And then I remind myself that after reading various studies and commentaries for the past 14 years, that I became confused as a result. So I’m sure these authors could help me out in some areas and yet I’m afraid to read them. Maybe when I get a more firm footing, then I’ll read them. I know where to find the titles since they’re in your comment. :)
        What started this whole thing was that I’ve had theories about various end time things (not related to Dan, Rev, or 70AD) – it was more about the afterlife. So to make sure I didn’t miss a thing, I read the entire bible. I’ve read it many times before but not with anything particular in mind. So I found out that my thoeries were wrong and that’s fine.
        But during my reading, I noticed it kept saying about the Kingdom being “near” or “at the doors” and 2000+ years later didn’t seem like “soon” to me. In the past, I have dismissed this because ‘a 1000 yrs is as a day’ to God. But there were other things about this ‘nearness’ that I just couldn’t ignore….
        I wondered why the letters to the seven churches were written to prepared them for the coming persecution. If this persecution was for us in the 20th century, then why were they written to the seven literal churches in the 1st century?

        Yeshua’s short ministry was packed full of instruction, warnings, teachings, and physical healings to illustrate spiritual healing. He wasn’t idle and neither were the emissaries. Their message was urgent. So if His Kingdom wasn’t for 2000+ years later, then why the urgency? Why tell them to ‘repent’ if there was no threat of wrath or punishment coming soon?

        John the Immerser says this of Yeshua:
        “ALREADY the axe is at the root of the trees, ready to strike; every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown into the fire” Matt 3:10
        “HE HAS WITH HIM his winnowing fork; and he will clear out his threshing floor, GATHERING HIS WHEAT INTO THE BARN BUT BURNING UP THE STRAW WITH UNQUENCHABLE FIRE!” Matt 3:12 (emphasis mine)

        If judgment has not come yet, 2000+ yrs later, then why does Yeshua have His winnowing fork WITH HIM at THAT time? And why is He ready to strike? You’re not going to prepare for something and then wait thousands of years.

        And this verse made me take pause:
        And so, on you will fall the guilt for all the innocent blood that has ever been shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Hevel to the blood of Zkharah Ben-Berekhah, whom you murdered between the Temple and the altar. Yes! I tell you that THIS WILL FALL ON THIS GENERATION! Matt 23:35-59
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        So this is what initially got me started so I read the bible yet again with these things in mind paying attention to any type of end time reference (I skipped a few pages in Chronicles because, it’s Chronicles :) ) This all happened in the last four months btw.
        I went to a preterist site and noticed that initially, they saw what I saw. I kept reading and realized that they have allegorized EVERYTHING and ignored a LOT of pertinent verses. So I stopped reading. I’m not sure what all the partial preterists, such as yourself, believes and a part of me is afraid to find out. But here’s where I stand in a nutshell without giving indepth reasons why because they’re just too lengthy for this type of forum.

        I believe the Kingdom of God is here now and it is spiritual. The evidence for this citizenship is the presence of the Holy Spirit which in turn bears visible fruit such as love, joy, peace, mercy, obedience etc. These things also show that we are in the New Covenant.
        I also believe that there is a real, literal Heavenly Kingdom that will come to a renewed earth in the olam haba (age to come). While Yeshua is reigning now in Heaven, He will be reigning on earth and I believe this is literal because if He were to only reign in Heaven, and not on earth, then no qualifications of His priesthood would need to be stated. If He reigned on earth, He would not qualify because He is not a Levite. Instead, the bible says He will be the High Priest in the order of Malki-Tzedek meaning God chosen Him Himself. (‘the scepter not departing from Judah’ is another way of saying this) There would be no reason to justify a heavenly reign because that doesn’t affect us here on earth. But if He’s coming to earth literally, then He needs to present His credentials, so to speak, because He CANNOT go against His own Torah and the Torah states that only Levites can be priests. And that’s only one reason, there are others. I also believe that He reigns on earth now in the hearts of His subjects. When we act in accordance with the Holy Sprit, thereby ‘cutting off our flesh’ or human nature, we give the world a little glimpse as to what Kingdom we belong to and it’s not of this world. And with this we reflect His glory and hope others will want that same thing.

        I don’t believe in a 3rd temple being built. And if it does get built by some miracle, then it is of the flesh and not a fulfillment of prophecy because it is not prophecied. Not to mention it isn’t necessary because the sacrificial system, and the Levitical priesthood, was abolished because Yeshua is the ultimate sacrifice, bringing an end to the Old Covenant. (plus God states that bull sacrifices do not please Him) We can now come to the Father through Yeshua for atonement. The Jews who want to rebuild the temple do not recognize Yeshua as Messiah and therefore think that temple sacrifices are necessary which is why they’re trying to rebuild the temple. And because there is no temple or sacrifices now, I believe this is an act of mercy from God so that they will not continue to heap sin upon added sin. In other words, that mosque sitting there is a bad thing, but because it’s sitting there, then Israel cannot continue to sin by denying Yeshua in that way anyway. (by Israel, I do not mean the circumcized of heart, I mean the mutilated – those circumcized in flesh only) So it really is an act of mercy but I’m sure no one else would see it that way. We also have to remember that it’s not the Muslims who are the problem because I think they are a tool used by God to judge them because the Rabbinic priesthood of long ago rendered that house ‘desolate’ by their idolatry. I’ll even go so far as to say that the Dome of the Rock having a gold cover is God’s way of connecting it with the golden calf that Israel worshipped.

        Yeshua was the Firstfruits and those that rose with Him were a part of that firstfruits offering to God. (the bible speaks of many who came out of their graves when He did after His crucifixion) This is not a harvest – just a firstfruits. I believe the harvest began right around His Judgment in 70AD because that wicked generation was ‘ripe’ for the harvest. But they would be harvested and thrown into the fire, the righteous are with Him now. Btw, I’m speaking for that region only, not a worldly thing. A harvest is never done in one day. Back then, it was done by many men over a period of time. So some grain would be harvested before others. We, you, me, and other believers throughout the centuries since have not been harvested yet. Our time is not ‘ripe’ yet. This coincides with the story of Ruth and how she gleaned from Boaz’s field over a period of time. She stayed on with him awhile – forget how long. There were several groups present and Boaz told her to only glean from his field, which tells me that he had a LOT of men working for him (reapers) and also that this was not done in one day.
        There are also verses and parables about the Kingdom “proliferating” or increasing. The numbers are always being added to. So in a nutshell, we are still His bride and still a part of that SAME harvest, but it’s not time yet. And if we are His bride as well, then it stands to reason that there would be more than one feast or banquet and we see this thematically in the story of Esther who prepared more than one banquet. (keep in mind, the details are not exactly the same in that Esther prepares a banquet for Her King/Husband and Yeshua prepares a banquet for His bride – but the overall theme is there of the bride, Husband, and multiple banquets).

        So we are not discards. We are not forgotten. Many people came to trust in Yeshua after the destruction and we have that same Holy Spirit. In fact for us, it’s even better because we ‘trust even though we have not seen Him’. Those people in the 1st century ‘saw’ Him.
        I’ve got my own ideas on what the “abomination” was that causes “desolation” and it has nothing to do with a pig being sacrificed. I’m still searching this out.

        Another reason why I think we are a part of that same harvest but are harvested later is due to the gleaning mitzvah in Lev. 23:22. You are not to harvest to the edges of your field because it’s for the poor and the foreigner. So if 1st century believers are the harvest including Jews, then “foreigners,” us, of the “nations,” would be the edges of the field. Remember, ‘salvation comes to the Jew first, then the Gentile?” ‘He came for the lost sheep of Israel.’ Also, ‘if the first batch of dough is holy, then so is the whole loaf?’

        So this is where I stand so far. There’s so much more that I could say but I’ve already written a book here. I don’t think I would agree with any teaching out there fully because the things I’m learning, I’ve never seen anywhere. I’m simply reading my bible, praying, and letting the Holy Spirit teach me.

      • Hi, 1. The “Kingdom of God” Christ preaches as being near is what we enter into it through faith in Christ: believing everything that Christ claims to be:  God’s promised Messiah, Eternal Son of God, the one who lived a perfect holy life for the sake of man’s redemption, the one who died for our sins, the one who suffered and died and resurrected from the dead and ascended into heaven. He sits on God’s eternal throne and since his ascension  reigns in heaven in fulfillment of God’s promise to make the descendant of David sits on a throne that would last forever and ever and be given an everlasting kingdom that is “not of this world” meaning heavenly and not earthly. One enters the kingdom of when you accepts Christ as King and you as one of his subjects. That’s why it is near you and not for observation. It is the spiritual kingdom in which Christ reigns since his ascension and until now. 2. The threat of punishment is what the apostles warns the unbelieving Jews will happen to them when Christ “comes on clouds” – during their great tribulation as a nation that is, during the first great Jewish-Roman War of 66-70AD.  They were almost wipe out as a nation had not God intervened on their behalf. Please read the account of Josephus,  a Jewish historian and an unbeliever. His accounts details how the prophecy of Christ in his Olivet Discourse were all fulfilled.  All the apostles talked about their generation living in the “last days. ”  Your statement, “they have allegorized EVERYTHING and ignored a LOT of pertinent verses” is quite difficult to understand if you won’t cite how preterist allegorize everything.  This is not true for Partial Preterists. You may have read the full preterist websites. They allegorized even the resurrection of the dead. You will be able to differentiate a partial from a full preterists by this general rule. The full preterists believe all prophecies in scriptures have been fulfilled already after 70 AD. This is wrong. On the other hand, the partial preterists maintain that the  literal and bodily second advent of Christ is still unfulfilled and will happen in OUR future. And so are the following: the general resurrection of the dead, General Judgment and the Eternal Life in the New Heaven and New Earth. These BIG 4 will happen in OUR future. However, the prophecy of Christ in the Olivet Discourse, “this generation shall not passed until ALL THESE THINGS would have been fulfilled” has already been fulfilled in the first Century BEFORE John the Apostle died.. The partial preterists use the hermeneutical principle of “explaining scriptures with scirptures.”  There are obvious metaphors that need to be explained in the light on how they were used by OT prophets. But generally we have to interpret taking into consideration the plain meaning of the words used without the need of allegorizing.  Hope this explains the side of the Partial Preterists.

      • Claro, thank you for giving me more info. as to what the partial preterists believe. I also believe in most everything you said except that I believe that the Kingdom is also a real place in heaven and will come to earth. So if the partial or full preterists believe that the Kingdom is only spiritual, then I will not be reading any material from them because they show a lack of understanding of what the New Covenant is, the Holy Spirit’s function in that New Covenant, the biblical Feasts particularly Sukkot and Pesach, not to mention the disregard for the physical description of the New Jerusalem which will come down from Heaven but I’m guessing those authors already have an explanation on standby.

        Yeshua taught using illustrations or parables. He and the emissaries also taught thematically and this is the way I usually study – thematically. That is the Hebraic way and the way outlined for us in the bible. To study and dissect words are the Western/Greek way. (or Christian way) And while they may get SOME things, they will never get a full picture by studying the words. Think about this….how many translations are out there? And how many mistranslations are there? Changing one word can change the entire meaning as I’m sure you’re aware from doing word studies. Now, don’t you think God knew this? Don’t you think He KNEW that man would try to corrupt His Word using various methods? God knew this beforehand and therefore created a way for people to understand what was written without dissecting words, that could not be corrupted by man and that is through thematic analysis. Like I said, Yeshua and the emissaries taught this way – linking related events together so that we could get a more complete picture.

        This is a general statement to anyone reading this: Besides “repentance” being preached by the prophets, Yeshua, and the emissaries, the next biggest message was to “not be deceived.” And how is one deceived primarily? Through OTHER PEOPLE. By listening to man preach. By listening to the “leaven of the Pharisees” or your favorite pastor or author. Satan uses other people, even those who are sincere and well meaning. The only way to be taught the pure Word is through the Ruach HaKodesh – the Holy Spirit. He is the Spirit of Truth who leads into all Truth. If you believe you are indwelled with the Holy Spirit, then you have no need for man to teach you:

        1 John 2:26,27
        26These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. 27As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

      • Hi You speak as if I wrote that the “Kingdom of God” will remain spiritual with respect to us now and that it will not culminate in the personal appearance of Christ at the end of time to resurrect those who are “dead in Christ” and also transformed the bodies of the believers still living at the time of his coming and bring them together to his HEAVENLY KINGDOM where he said to his apostles he prepared for them a place where there are “MANY MANSIONS.” The Partial Preterists never said, “that the kingdom of God is only spiritual” (CHURCH).  I don’t know where you get that idea. You may have read it in the FULL PRETERIST websites. You speak also as if “the New Jerusalem” in Revelation is a “city on top of a big mass of earth” that would literally come down from heaven. That is a mistaken interpretation. Christian view the “New Jerusalem” two ways.   First, it is a current reality. It is the consummation of the body of Christ, the CHURCH. Christians also take part in membership of both the “HEAVENLY JERUSALEM” which is yet to come and the EARTHLY CHURCH in a kind of dual citizenship.   The second is that the NEW JERUSALEM is the Christians’ “HEAVENLY HOME” when Christ shall bring his resurrected believers and transformed believers still living at his coming altogether into his HEAVENLY KINGDOM of his Father where God will be all in all. Hope you are able to differentiate the two kinds of  “kingdom of God.”  

  5. Carol,

    I have trouble when too much is allegorical. Sometimes I get tired of hearing about types and ages. Not that they aren’t there, just that shouldn’t be our focus. Appling the Scripture is more important than speculating about it.

    I haven’t heard much of Hanagraaf until my husband was reading some pro-preterist books and some anti-preterist books. The heated discussion gets lost on me.

    Berean Wife

  6. Hello Bible Thumper,

    Hope you are well these days?!

    Hank H is a partial or Orthodox Preterist. I think you’ve confused him with another group that is called Hyper Preterism. I’ve been involved in this for the last year and I suggest that you do a bit more research in this before making accusations like the one you’ve made against HH.

    Don’t believe me? Go to this site http://www.preteristblog.com and ask her for yourself, her being Dee Dee Warren, the foremost authority I know regarding the differences between the two camps. One (PP) is orthodox and the other (HP) is not. My friend Dee Dee will help you to see this. You can even go to mine and keyword “hyper preterism” or “hyper preterist” and you will get an eyeful.

    Good Luck with the new site Bible Thumper!

    Phil

  7. Hey everybody.

    I just wanted to leave my two cents. I think the term ‘this generation’ refers to a people group, namely ‘the elect’ or the ‘kingdom of God’. I get this from the context of the verses. The pronoun ‘this’ might have this group in mind as its referent.

    So what? This means Jesus is saying that ‘The elect will not die out until all these things take place. I find this comforting. Not all believers will be exterminated on earth before he comes in his glory with his holy angels, etc. I assume Satan will be doing his best to cause us to die out, but he will not succeed. For the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened.

    Am I right? I don’t know for sure. I can’t find anyone else out there talking about this idea. I did send a letter to Hank H. a few weeks back, but never heard from him on this matter. He probably gets many such letters.

    Hank believes strongly in letting the context of a verse suggest its interpretation. I think he would have to agree that this interpretation (‘this generation’ = ‘the elect’) is a reasonable possibility at least.

    I also think Jesus is using the term ‘this generation’ to mean ‘the kingdom of heaven’ in the discourse where he says ‘to what shall I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the market…’ Check it out for yourself. You will see that ‘the kingdom of heaven’ could be the possible referent for ‘this’.

    Finally, can a simply people group with a particular quality be called a generation? Yes, of course. The term can be used qualitatively. It is used this way, with out a quantitative time period associated with it when Jesus uses it to refer to the Pharisee, for example. You can argue with my point of view on this if you like, and that’s cool, but if you think about it, all the word really means is a group of offspring, a group that has been generated. The time period across which the generating is occurring is not necessarily important.

    Well, hope that helped you guys out. God Bless.
    Love
    Virginia Boy

  8. Hello all, Right off, I will tell you i’m a partial preterist. First I want to say, if you a brother or sister in Christ, I love you all. I pray that if I’m in error, that God through His Holy Spirit would reveal it to me.
    To learn more about my position, go to http://www.edbudd.net. Ed’s a little hard to take at times, but I think his heart is in the right place.

    I did a phrase/word study on “this generation” and “that generation” and “generation” of OT and NT. Please allow me to briefly take you through my thought process.

    Whenever “this generation” was used in the OT, it always mean the current generation. I can’t go through every example where “this generation” appears, so you’ll have be a Berean and check it yourself. However, I will give some examples to help make my point. The first example we come too that uses “this generation” is Genesis 7:1, which is talking about Noah and his household, in reference to the wicked all around him. Next verse Psalms 71:18, The NET translates this Next generation, which fits, although currently the translation of my choice is NKJV reads “this”, along with the Amplified, LITV. It’s quite evident that the psalmist is making a reference to the generation coming up, it is already there. For if the psalmist is dead, he could no longer tell anyone about God. “This” and “next” both apply, in making a time reference to the nearness, closeness and most importantly a current and already in existance of the generation.

    When we see “that generation” in the OT, it always refers to a distance, past or future generation, not a current one. For example Exodus 1:6, Numbers 32:13 (most translations say “all the generation” here), Judges 2:10 (NKJV). Psalms 78:6 is an interesting one because the NET uses “next” while other translations use “later (YLT)”, “that the generation to come (AMP and NKJV)”. My point is, we have many writers of the bible, many translators, but only ONE author, Jesus Christ! He is not the author of confusion, Jesus clearly makes sure that we know exactly who He’s referring to when He is talking about a particular generation (past, current, or future).

    When Jesus wants us do know he is taking about a future generation, He gives us context, and words to let us know. An example of future generations are usually written as generation to generation for example Exodus 3:15, Daniel 4:3, or every generation in Esther 9:28, and following generation as in Joel 1:3

    Lets jump to the NT now. What generation is Matthew 12:38-41 talking about? Who is Jesus talking too? The experts of the law, the Pharisees, read verse 38 for context. “This generation clearly means them, the current generation. Same thing in Matthew 12:42,45, Matthew 16:1-4 (context), Matthew 17:17 (no doubt in my mind who Jesus is referring too), in Matthew 23:33-36 there should be no question who Christ is condemning to hell. In verse 36 Christ says “Assuredly” (PAY ATTENTION NOW)(my own emphasis), I say to you (who? His audience of Vipers, apostate Jews), these things will come upon “this generation.”(NKJV)

    What is amazing to me is, that when we get to Matthew 24:34, most Americans want to all of a sudden which the mean of “this generation” to “that generation” WHAAAT? Jesus is answering a question that was framed up by His disciples regarding the destruction of the temple, the sign of your coming (in His destruction, God comes riding on clouds in delivering His Justice through out the OT, read Isaiah 19, Psalms 18:9-11), and the end of the age (aion, not world, what age, the OT age, the age of the temple sacrifice and worship). If I was a Jew back then, I’d think the same thing, what are you going to do Jesus? Upset my entire way of life and worship? Matthew 24:4-34 is His answer, it is all in the past, it can be proven biblically and externally through Historians such Josephus.

    A quick overview on how I interpret Matt. 24

    Matthew 24:4-5 – false Christs were prevalent leading up to 70AD as it is today. Vespasian, Athronges and Menahem ben Judah, according to Josephus, plus others made this claim. In Luke 21:8 there is a time reference.

    Matthew 24:7, we know from historian accounts that there was a lot of fight going on after Christ death. We know that famines (Acts 11:28) and earthquakes (Acts 16:26). happened during this period.

    Let’s forget to obvious stuff, Matthew 24:14, the gospel must be preached to all the world (Oikoumene- the inhabited earth or land, the land inhabited by the Greeks, the Roman empire), compare this with Colossians 1:6, Colossians 1:23, Romans 1:8, and Acts 2:5.

    “and the end will come”, my opinion, the end of the age as noted in Matthew 24:3. The end of the old covenant and Jewish religious system.

    Matthew 24:15, what is an abomination? Proverbs 15:8, Proverbs 17:15. After the Lord said it was finished on the cross Jewish sacrifices where an abomination to Him. Jesus Christ was the perfect sacrifice, but the priests, who were also an abomination in their rebellion against Christ, still offered these sacrifices. What a slap in the face to our Lord. And some Christians today say we are going back to sacrifices during the 1000 yr millenium.

    Matthew 24:17, who lives on their house top today? We don’t live on our house tops today.

    Matthew 24:20, pray that your flight on the Sabbath, doesn’t apply to most Christians today, for Christ is our Sabbath. 1st Century Christians who didn’t totally break the bonds of Judaism would have understood this.

    Matthew 24:21, God’s judgment on the apostate Jews was a great tribulation, read historical account from Josephus.

    Matthew 24:27, lightnings, this is judgment language. Psalms 144:6, Psalms 18:14, Jeremiah 51:16. Don’t forget who ultimately wrote the bible and Jesus knows how to quote Himself.

    Matthew 24:29, the moon, sun and star represent the Nation of Israel. Remember Joseph’s dream in Genesis 39:9. Jesus is describing His judgment upon Israel.

    • Is it not possible to speak to someone standing in front of you about a time in the future? Look, I understand that reading the text and following a chronological thought process would cause you to think that these events happen concurrently. And this is the product of Greek or Western type of thinking of which we’re all conditioned. But you must consider the context as well. “This” could be talking about the people in front of him, or “this” could be talking about a people in the future. In English we would say “they” but we have to understand that these are a Hebrew people who spoke differently than we do in English. Their sentence structure is a little different than ours. Where we would say “please give me bread,” they would say, “please give to me bread.” It’s slightly different.

      Please note that the book of Matthew was originally written in Hebrew and the Greek translation appeared after the Aramaic translation, making it three translations removed from the original. The Hebrew translation is called Shem Tov’s Hebrew Matthew – you can look this up. (I don’t believe these manuscripts are available to the public)

      I’m going to be writing from my Complete Jewish Bible because it is the most accurate Hebrew to English translation in print for the public.

      Matt 24:3 When he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the talmidim (disciples) came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that you are coming, and that the ‘olam hazeh is ending?”

      There are three questions here. Now the talmidim may have believed that the destruction of the temple would mean the end of the world at that time but we see, by the fact that we’re all still here, that this is not so.

      “When will these things happen?” refers to the destruction of the temple as you said.
      The other two questions – the sign that he is coming – when? at the end means the end of the world. Olam hazeh does not mean the end of that time period but the end of the world.
      Again, they probably thought the end of the world would be kick-started by the destruction of the temple. Yeshua answers them honestly. His answers spans time because again, we’re still here and so the end of the world has not happened yet.

      I believe that from verses 4 to verses 22, it is speaking of the time before the destruction of the temple meaning it is already past. This is famines, earthquakes, the abomination in the temple etc. So I think we agree on this but the modern church teaches that this is a future event.

      Then question #2 is answered: “what will be the sign that you are coming?”
      Answer: Matt 24:23 “At that time, (what time? the time that He is about to speak about in the future in answer to the original question) if someone says to you, ‘Look! Here’s the Messiah! or, ‘There he is!’ don’t believe him. 24 For there will appear false Messiahs and false prophets performing great miracles – amazing things! – so as to fool even the chosen, if possible. 25 There! I have told you in advance!

      Then He answers question #3 – when will be “the sign of the end of the world?”
      Answer: Matt 24:27 For when the Son of Man does come, it will be like lightning that flashes out of the eat and fills the sky to the western horizon. 28 Wherever there’s a dead body, that’s where you find the vultures.

      Then He goes into the cosmic signs – sun growing dark, moon stop shining etc. Verse 30 “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, all the tribes of the Land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds in heaven with tremendous power and glory. 31 He will send out his angels with a great shofar (trumpet); and they will gather together his chosen people from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

      Questions 2 & 3 are speaking of the same time period which is at the end of the world. The problem that preterists have is that they allegorize events that cannot be explained. How can you allegorize cosmic signs, Yeshua coming in the clouds, all the tribes seeing Him and mourning, angels blowing their shofars, all of His people gathered? (By the way, if you claim to be a believer if you’re still living outside of Israel, then you have not been gathered. You need to read up on the dispersion and two house theology to understand what I’m talking about)

      So none of the above have happened! And to clinch the deal, reread verse 28.
      “Wherever there’s a dead body, that’s where you find the vultures.” This is judgment language which I did a study on. Please read https://boldlyproclaimingchrist.wordpress.com/2011/10/31/one-taken-one-left-a-thematic-analysis/

      If you read it, you will see that this refers to judgment at the very end of the world. And yet this was stated in Matthew to a group of people standing in front of Yeshua yet this is future.

      “Christ is our Sabbath”
      This is modern Christian thought meaning that we no longer have to obey the Sabbath for some reason. The Sabbath was established at creation when He rested. This was a lasting ordinance that was put into place AT creation which is before the Jews existed. Israel wasn’t around back then but the Sabbath was. When we rest on the 7th day, we are acknowledging God as our Creator. Yeshua showing up years later does not nullify the fact that He established the Sabbath and is the Creator.

      As far as how long we are to celebrate them…

      Ex 31:12 Adonai said to Moshe, 13 “Tell the people of Israel, ‘You are to observe my Shabbats; for this is a sign between me and you through all your generations; so that you will know that I am Adonai, who sets you apart for me.

      16 The people of Israel are to keep the Shabbat, to observe Shabbat through all their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between me and the people of Israel forever;

      Yeshua observed Shabbat:

      Luke 4:16 Now when he went to Natzeret, where he had been brought up, on Shabbat he went to the synagogue as usual.

      Shabbat to be kept in the new heavens and earth:

      Isa 66:22 “For just as the new heavens and the new earth that I am making will continue in my presence,” says Adonai, “so will your descendants and your name continue.
      23 “Every month on rosh-Hodesh
      and every week on Shabbat,
      everyone living will come
      to worship in my presence,” says Adonai.

      Please read the link I provided. If you have more questions, contact me in the links section above.

    • Bookends, congratulations. You got it all right. I am a partial preterist in the way I understand the Olivet Discourse. All the events prior to verse 34 were all fulfilled. The only things unfulfilled are: The revelation of the man of sin, the physical and bodily coming back to earth of Christ, the resurrection of the dead and the Final Judgment of mankind.

      God bless,

      Claro

  9. Claro, Thanks for stopping by. My comment isn’t about this discussion. What I’d like you to do is watch a series of videos on end times, one of which was recently released from 119 ministries. http://119ministries.com/daniel-unsealed

    There’s four but the link is for the fourth video and the most important. This is much bigger than anything discussed here. :) Please watch it.

  10. The Fig tree he is referring to, has always stood for Israel.. What this parable referred to was the recapture of Israel which happened in ’48. This is what started the “Generation” that would not pass away until he returns. :) Sir Isaac Newton, (long before anyone thought it possible that Israel ever be back in the land), was a brilliant prophecy scholar, & he had written in his interpretations that exactly 49 years after the future rebirth of Israel, (a Jubilee cycle), Christ would return. Interestingly enough, the recapture of Israel was on a Jubilee year, & during the feast of trumpets (which is the foreshadow of the appointed time for the ‘wedding supper of the lamb’)..In other words, the return we are looking toward. That date would be September 23 – 28, 2015! To make things even more exciting, it appears there will be a lunar tetrad (blood moons with YHVH’s name literally spelled in the heavens) & eclipse surrounding those days during the Lord’s feasts from Israel. Thanks to Nasa these are able to be seen in advance & also able to go back & see previous ‘signs in the heavens’, & as it turns out the only other times such tetrads have ever occurred have been during the ‘birth pains’ of Messiah’s return, the recapture of Israel / 6 day war / etc. There’s even more to this theory from many unconnected sources. It appears we are at that time, & we know we’re definitely that generation! ;-) Google “Jesus returns September 2015″ & you will get many sources sighting many different reasons such as this it appears the mystery is suddenly revealed. And the saying we’ve always sighted; “Nobody knows the day or the hour, only my father in heaven”; it turns out is an old Jewish Idiom still used today for the SAME FEAST! :-) God Bless You! (Hope that helped)!

    • Hi Tabitha,

      I agree that we are the last generation. 119 Ministries gives compelling reasons to believe that 2016 Yom Teruah as being Yeshua’s return. The blood moon tetrads happening before, 1967 being a Jubilee year (Israel gets their land back) and 2016 is a Jubilee year (Yeshua getting His land back). But some say 2017 and I’ve heard 2015 also. If it’s 2015, then the great persecution has to begin very soon due to the 1260 days. But I’m not dogmatic on anything. But I do believe that either way, we’ve only got a few more years here. Tough times ahead though. :)

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